/vibe coded, now what?: the cost that comes later

Vibe coding got everyone a prototype. It did not get anyone a production system. Host James Carman sits down with Kendra Ramirez, CEO of KR Digital and a global Claude ambassador, on why the bill for a vibe coded app arrives later, why she turns down companies that want AI to cut headcount, and how to stop paying for tokens you did not need to spend.

At a glance

Key takeaways

• She turns down the headcount-cutting work, flatly. When a company says it wants AI so it can fire people, Kendra's answer is "literally a no period." Her reasoning is integrity: "I want to sleep well at night. I don't want that on my shoulders."
• Do not automate the part of the job someone loves. Her team asks people what they enjoy about their role and deliberately leaves it alone: "Let's figure out the things that you hate doing and then figure out how could AI potentially help in those areas."
• Put the skeptics in the room on purpose. Skeptics are good at poking holes, finding bottlenecks, and naming the reasons something will not work. Kendra pairs them with an internal AI advocate, because both sides are needed for a rollout to hold.
• Check what you already own before you build anything. One prospect wanted automated accounts receivable follow-ups. One question about their accounting system revealed QuickBooks already had the feature built in.
• Ask your vendors what is on the roadmap. A client with a painful management tool was about to fund custom development. They asked the vendor instead, and the specific pain points shipped within thirty days.
• Start with the why or your people will invent one. If leadership announces AI without explaining the motivation, employees fill the silence themselves, and what they fill it with is job loss.
• Get resistant people playing before you get them working. Kendra sat with a woman overwhelmed by planning her daughter's wedding and walked her through prompting it. "Her whole body shifted." That personal win became the bridge to a work use case.
• Filter the noise instead of tracking it. "It's impossible to track everything." Kendra follows the model providers she actually uses and runs everything else through one question: is this going to impact me tomorrow?
• Plan in the expensive model, execute in the cheap one. Her token discipline: plan in Opus, run it in Sonnet, and do most day-to-day work in regular chat rather than reaching for the heaviest tool by default.
• Vibe coding earns a ship it, with limits. Kendra loves it for storyboarding and minimum viable products, and is clear that it is "definitely not production level." The cost people miss is security and maintenance, and the person who vibe coded it usually cannot carry either.

Host and guest

Frequently asked questions

Why does Kendra Ramirez refuse AI projects aimed at cutting headcount?

Integrity, and she does not soften it. "There are thousands of organizations I'd be more than happy to take your money and I'm not." She adds that the ask sometimes comes from a lack of education rather than bad intent, so she will explain that the work still needs humans and the subject matter expertise they carry.

Where should a company start with AI?

Internally, and small. "If we fall on our face, we do it internally. We don't want to do it with a public facing client." Look at day-to-day productivity first, and check whether your existing technology stack already does the thing you are about to go buy or build.

Are the AI features built into existing software any good?

Kendra has had good results with AI built into established enterprise platforms, and much less success with one-off wrappers built on top of something else. Her advice is to vet vendors you already have in place rather than adding new ones.

Is vibe coding worth doing?

Yes, for prototypes. It is excellent for storyboarding ideas and putting a minimum viable product in front of people, and it is not a production platform. The gap that catches organizations is security, obscuring the code, and long-term maintenance, none of which the person who vibe coded it usually knows how to handle.

Is SaaS actually dying?

Both James and Kendra think the SaaSpocalypse is overplayed. Kendra's framing is that Salesforce is a Cadillac with a thousand bells and whistles that most organizations use ten percent of, so narrow purpose-built replacements will appear, then need an expert to finish and maintain them. James expects some price erosion on enterprise packages rather than their collapse.

How do you keep AI costs under control?

Plan in a higher model and execute in a cheaper one, do the planning in regular chat rather than a heavier agentic tool, edit your original prompt instead of piling on iterations, and ask the model at the end of a long session how you should have prompted it in the first place.

Ship it or skip it

Full transcript

How Kendra got into AI in 2018

James Carman: Welcome to the Forward Slash Podcast, where we lean into the future of IT by inviting fellow thought leaders, innovators, and problem solvers to slash through its complexity. I'm your host, James Carman, and today we're talking to Kendra Ramirez. Kendra has been building bots since 2018, back when AI still made most business leaders' eyes glaze over. Kendra Ramirez didn't wait for the rest of us to catch up. She's now CEO of KR Digital, co-host of Cincy AI, the tri-state's largest AI community. And she's given more than two hundred fifty talks on AI, which is either evangelism or a very demanding hobby. She's a global Claude ambassador and has spent fifteen plus years in tech doing one thing consistently, helping people navigate change before they're ready for it. Kendra, welcome to the Forward Slash.

Kendra Ramirez: Thank you so much, James.

James Carman: You've been doing AI since 2018. How did you get into AI way back when?

Kendra Ramirez: I'm just a technology nerd. I'm constantly beta testing things, pushing all the buttons. And I just fell in love with technology. Growing up, school was hard for me. I don't read and learn from a book. I've learned that it's really an opportunity to get my hands on something and learn through that process. And so I just fell in love with it, started in data center world with technical recruiting and then technical sales and just continued to evolve, and it was just out of need. We were with our clients at the time in social media and they're like, hey, we're getting all this inbox stuff, we can't stay on top of it. Could you help? And I'm like, let's figure this out. So I went and looked for some tools, and then we just started adding in more AI tools and that's where we are today. Just continue to evolve and listen to client needs and grow with them.

The clients she says no to

James Carman: You said something at a conference. I think it was at Cloud Nirvana, you gave a talk there and I was listening to it. You said, when companies come to me and they say, hey, Kendra, I want to use AI, I want to be able to automate all the things so I can fire a bunch of people, you were like, I don't work with those companies. Tell me a little bit about that.

Kendra Ramirez: Well, thank you. And it's literally a no period. I guess, end of sentence. And for me, it's about just integrity. I want to sleep well at night. I don't want that on my shoulders. And if that's the reason they're doing it, I just don't want to be involved with that. And just sometimes there is a lack of education. So making sure that they understand that we still need humans to do the work. There's so much subject matter expertise that we need. And just getting rid of a bunch of people should not be the goal. But yeah, it's very much an immediate no. I'm like, you know what, there are thousands of organizations I'd be more than happy to take your money and I'm not.

James Carman: There are plenty out there, I'm sure. And the integrity thing is so important to me as well. What we do here at Callibrity, we're the same way. We want to be able to put our head down on our pillow at night and sleep. But you would be doing business a disservice. Because I think what we've seen is all of the companies that have taken that let's optimize here or cut costs here approach, you're going to get okay returns there. The people who are really leveraging AI and seeing just skyrocketing productivity and new revenue are where you're rethinking processes.

Kendra Ramirez: A hundred percent. So the organizations that come and say, hey, we just want to navigate it, we want to be able to bring efficiencies and help our team members that are overwhelmed, I'm like, I'm all in. Let's help your team, let's get you to the mission and goals that you have in your organization. And so being able to literally walk them through from strategy and training and then the workflow pieces where we're sitting down with the humans. We're very human-centered in our approach and asking, what about your role that you love to do? Because let's not add AI to that. Maybe AI could do it, but let's not add AI to something that you love doing. Let's figure out the things that you hate doing and then figure out how could AI potentially help in those areas.

Why the skeptics belong in the room

James Carman: Everybody's like, well, we need to be doing AI. How do you coach people through thinking around this as a day-to-day changer, a superpower if you will, to really juice your business and take you to the next level?

Kendra Ramirez: It's such a mindset shift. And I really struggled with that in the beginning of doing this work because it just was so intuitive to me, but I had to understand that I thrive in change and a lot of people don't. And so really meeting them where they are, no matter where they are. On our team, when we're working with individuals, we want the skeptics in the room, because the skeptics are really, really good at poking holes in things, finding bottlenecks, finding reasons why it might not work, and mentoring them with someone who is an AI advocate in their organization. Because we need both sides of the fence for it to work very well.

Kendra Ramirez: Making sure to guide leadership on the importance of the why behind what they're doing when they start rolling out AI. Because if they just focus on AI and the technical aspects, you're going to leave a whole bunch of people behind. And so to understand that if you can speak or type, you can use AI. To get it out of their head that this is not a technical thing. And really the transformation happens when we focus on the humans. I have said this for many years. AI is not a technical problem, it's a human one.

Check what you already own

James Carman: Are there no-go automations or workflows where you're like, we've done this a bunch of times and it's just not the best use case for AI? Or any that you say, we ought to immediately look for this sort of thing?

Kendra Ramirez: What's interesting is everyone wants to boil the ocean first. They want to do some big hairy AI project. And then, time out. Let's work internally. If we fall on our face, we do it internally. We don't want to do it with a public facing client. Let's look at more of the productivity pieces within our own organization.

Kendra Ramirez: The other piece of that is looking at their own current technology stack. So we had one potential client, they reached out and they're like, hey, can you come talk to us about working for our accounts receivable team? We're behind on different areas and we want to be able to automate our follow-ups. And so I just asked one question: what system are you using today for accounting? They're like, QuickBooks. I'm like, okay. Guess what? QuickBooks already has that built in. And I think it's just because all of us are heads down doing the work and we're not looking up to see, does the technology that we're already using either have some AI enablement already there, or have we talked to those vendors about their AI roadmap?

Kendra Ramirez: Let's start with just the day to day of how work gets done. Because what we find is a lot of these processes and workflows of how work gets done have not been touched in fifteen or twenty years, or however long that individual has been doing that job.

Talk to your vendors first

James Carman: What has your experience been with the packaged tools and those embedded AI solutions, those chat bots? HubSpot's got a thing I can ask questions. We use a thing called 90 for EOS, and 90 has a new thing built in. Are they effective? Is it hit or miss?

Kendra Ramirez: Yeah, we've had great success with the stuff that's built into existing enterprise platforms. Not so much with a one-off where someone built a wrapper on top of something. So it's really important for your listeners to vet your vendors. When I say current technology stack, I mean the vendors you're already working with, the systems you already have in place, because you already vetted those vendors, they're already integrated in your organization.

Kendra Ramirez: Our work really is focused on what I call off-the-shelf AI, meaning Microsoft Copilot, Claude, ChatGPT, just the core models and what are we currently doing, and not so much the custom AI development. There's some fantastic partners like yourself that can do that kind of work.

James Carman: There's a lot of mileage from that day-to-day stuff. The off-the-shelf products do a fantastic job. I just did a bunch of automation the other day with Claude and I didn't have to write a lick of code.

Kendra Ramirez: Perfect example, a client had a particular tool that did not have AI enabled at the time and they were just having a lot of headaches. And we were walking through things. I'm like, well, have you talked to the vendor? And they're like, nope. I'm like, well, let's start there. Why would we go invest a bunch of money in developing something when it may be on the roadmap? Let's go talk to them. And they did, and sure enough, some of the things very specific that were pain points for them are going to be solved in the next thirty days. And so no telling how much money I saved them in development, because they were going down a path like, this is just ridiculous. It's seventeen times the work that we're having to do. Talk to your vendors. They're happy to share, hey, this is what we're doing and where we're going, because they don't want to lose you either.

James Carman: The calculus has changed. It has changed in a lot of different ways, but this vendor relationship, especially the software package vendor relationship, absolutely is going to change or has changed. Every time I go to a vendor and say, I'd like this new feature, they're like, yeah, that would be cool, wouldn't it? See me in five years. There are more yeses now, and the timelines are not as protracted as they used to be.

Getting past the fear

James Carman: How do you work with people in the organizations you're helping with that fear? How do you do this with empathy and try to make folks understand that we're not coming after your jobs here, we're trying to make your day better?

Kendra Ramirez: That's why it's important for leadership to start with the why they're doing it, versus just, hey, we're doing AI, no ifs, ands, or buts. So one of the fun things that we've unlocked, if I do have someone that's very hesitant, very resistant, very fear-based, I actually get them to play first from a personal standpoint.

Kendra Ramirez: So I'll sit down and ask them, what's something in your personal world right now that maybe feels a little overwhelming, you don't know where to start? And sometimes I'll help rattle off some different things like building a fitness plan, what the heck do I want for dinner, writing a little kid story with your kid or your grandkid. Just something for fun. So I was with this lady and I wish I had a video of it. I asked her that question, and she said, well, my daughter just got engaged, she's getting married down in Louisville, I have no contacts there, I've never planned a wedding. I am very overwhelmed by the whole thing. I said, that's a perfect example of using AI. So we just sat side by side and I walked her through how to prompt it and ask questions. And her whole body shifted. She was literally giddy. She's looking at me, she goes, this is AI? Like, yes, this is AI. And so sometimes we just have to start and meet people where they are. And by her playing, it got her excited about, okay, now how do we translate that into work?

Kendra Ramirez: So I sat and did the same thing. I said, okay, now that we did that really fun thing here and we showed you how to prompt, what's something that is a day-to-day task that you're doing now that drives you crazy? And she's like, I have to pull this report, always have to do a summary, it has to be emailed over. I'm like, perfect. That's another really great use case. And let's walk through it. And so just being able to connect those dots of personal use to work use. And she's just taken off. It's just been really, really fun.

James Carman: One thing you said that is really important, start with the why. Of course you go back to Simon Sinek. But companies do a really poor job, and we do it too. You have to make sure people understand what the motivation is behind what you're doing. Because if you don't, anytime you leave that kind of communication vacuum, somebody else is going to fill it. Your employees are going to fill it in their own head. And that's what leads to that fear, uncertainty, and doubt. And they're usually not flattering. Like, they're just trying to take my job. It's always going to be the boogeyman type of thing.

AI fatigue and the comparison trap

James Carman: Is AI fatigue setting in with some of these folks?

Kendra Ramirez: Yeah, it's real. Because literally every minute the model is changing or updating or there's something new. And I just experienced this myself. I took ten days off and I was off grid. I was in Alaska and a lot of times didn't even have a Wi-Fi signal. And you know, that FOMO, being like, this is what I do for a living, it's really important for me to not miss something.

Kendra Ramirez: But when I really sat back and watched, I was like, okay, when I get back and when I hit Wi-Fi, I'm using the filter of, is this really truly a new model update, that Anthropic overcame OpenAI in revenue for the first time, all these little things. Is it really going to impact me tomorrow? And so I just really encourage all of us to find a filter, whatever filter you want to run it through, that you don't have to track everything. It's impossible to track everything. It's impossible to know everything. So just focus in on the models that you're using in your organization and following any of their newsletters or their developers. That's what I do. I intentionally follow Anthropic and OpenAI and Microsoft developers on X, of what's coming, where things are going. And then of course I have an AI agent set up to go and scrape information through a certain lens that I have it looking through for SMBs, service, and nonprofits. And so it knows exactly what I need to know to be prepared to prepare them, but through the lens of, is this really going to impact me tomorrow? And if not, toss it.

James Carman: As much as I'm digging into this and trying to stay current, I have conversations where you're like, hey, have you heard about this tool? And I feel like I'm saying no more than not. The tactic I've had to take is I almost have to grab a hold of something and dig in, do deep dives, because the concepts will translate. It's like if you wanted to learn to be a woodworker and you took a piece of wood to Home Depot and you just walked around the store trying to use all the different tools on one piece of wood, you're not going to learn to be a woodworker. Whereas if you went to the store, bought a tool, and then you brought it home and used the tool for a little bit with different pieces of wood, see how it works.

Kendra Ramirez: I love that analogy.

James Carman: I feel bad how kids are growing up today. They live in this Pinterest world, this Instagram world where everybody's putting forth this mostly false view of themselves. And so you're comparing yourself to all of that and saying, oh my gosh, I don't measure up. But those people that have those Pinterest houses that are beautiful and perfect all the time, go there on a Tuesday when they're not doing a photo shoot and there's toys all over the floor, just like everybody else. It's the same with technologists.

Kendra Ramirez: A hundred percent. And if someone calls themselves a guru or expert, run. To me that's an immediate red flag.

James Carman: I wouldn't have called myself a Java guru, and I've been doing it almost thirty years. Not in the first three years of using Java would I have said I'm a guru.

Kendra Ramirez: So all of you listening, do not fall in the comparison trap. Don't feel like you're behind. I love the whole AI bubble chart. There are eight point one billion people in the world, but only, I think it was like fifteen million of those people actually had paid AI accounts. So don't even get yourself into the comparison. You just have to focus on where you are, where your organization is, and not get caught up in shiny objects, because it's just going to be a massive distraction.

Ship it or skip it: vibe coding

James Carman: Vibe coding, it's always a hot topic. Are you on board with vibe coding or are you like, whatever?

Kendra Ramirez: Absolutely, a hundred percent on board. I love it. I've always been an ideas person, so being able to now go and build something. But it's just more like storyboarding ideas, putting a minimal viable product together, like it's definitely not production level. But it's enough to be able to hand to someone like your team and say, hey, I built this thing, I think it's something that's really going to help with our organization. And I'm sure it helps you all have a better vision of what exactly is this organization trying to achieve with that product or that software. Just being able to iterate and have something visual to show is huge.

James Carman: I don't want to sound gatekeepy. There's obviously a time and a place for people who have experience for these things. But I do love the idea of the democratization of this. Instead of trying to just use words, you can build the gist of what you're thinking. That's more approachable for people now. I think we'll hear about more ideas now. This is one of those areas where people need to not be fearful of AI, because this is where all those new jobs from AI are going to happen. All of those ideas are going to come flooding in.

Kendra Ramirez: I feel bad for the IT departments right now, because they're just getting buried with, here's a thousand vibe coded things, and they're just dumping it in their lap.

James Carman: I'm ship it on vibe coding for what it's for, the rapid prototyping and letting your ideas take shape. There's also a time and a place for agentic engineering where there's a little more rigor and methodology to it.

Ship it or skip it: the SaaSpocalypse

James Carman: What are you seeing with this whole SaaSpocalypse thing? Is SaaS dead or is this all mumbo jumbo?

Kendra Ramirez: It's funny because it's happening right now on X. There's a group out there saying, we totally cancelled our Salesforce, a six hundred thousand dollar contract, because we vibe coded a CRM. I'm like, really? Did you? Because I don't think so.

Kendra Ramirez: You can definitely vibe code a CRM, but literally when you're going in to a production level, and then now you've got the security issues, but then also just the maintenance. So now you've got someone that's vibe coding something, but they don't know how to obscure it, they don't know how to actually get it to a production level. There's massive concern there. Unless they have a partner like Callibrity.

Kendra Ramirez: So again, it dovetails back into our conversation about vibe coding. Understanding its place. Vibe coding is not a production level platform. But I do think we will see some of those narrow use cases, because using Salesforce as the example, Salesforce is like a Cadillac. It's got a thousand bells and whistles, and most organizations probably only use ten percent of it. So going and vibe coding a ten percent little narrow CRM for something very specific, but then working with an expert to finish it out. That's the part that people don't understand, and the maintenance that's required is huge, because the person that vibe coded it, they don't know how to carry that out.

James Carman: I think the SaaSpocalypse is a little overplayed. There's a band within the market where you're going to see a lot of this, the smaller players that are having to buy the Cadillacs when they need an Accord. Whereas in the past, the Accord might have cost them three million dollars to build. Now it only costs them a hundred thousand. Those are made up numbers, but it's more approachable.

James Carman: The enterprises are doing what enterprises always do, the pendulum swing thing. Let's fire all of our vendors and we can do this. But there's a reason you hired those software vendors in the first place, because you have a core business you want to focus on and differentiate yourself. Even though it might be easier to get that Pareto principle eighty-twenty version of Salesforce or HubSpot, now you've got to maintain it. Those investments could be better suited differentiating you and making your core business better. I think there may be a bit of erosion of the price point on some of these enterprise packages, but I think the enterprise software vendors will be fine.

Ship it or skip it: token optimization

James Carman: Are the folks you work with hitting those token limits? Are they having to start thinking about, wait a minute, we need to back off here?

Kendra Ramirez: For sure. It's so funny, I'm literally laughing because in the early days, giving air quotes here, and I mean like March, I had teams and AI leaders telling their teams, go for it, we don't want to hold you back. And I'm looking at them when they're standing in front of the room saying these things, going, please don't say that. And then now they're coming back like, hey, can you come back in and show us how to be more mindful of token management? So I'm like, yes, absolutely.

Kendra Ramirez: I do this naturally. I always plan something in maybe one of the higher models and then execute it in a lower model. So let's take Claude for example. I'll go and use Opus, let's plan this thing, and then I'll just execute it through Sonnet, a cheaper model. And then also teaching teams to do that planning first and do the planning in just regular chat. We don't have to always do it in the other models.

Kendra Ramirez: That was something that we found with a lot of teams, especially enterprise wide Claude. They were so fired up about cowork, they were pushing cowork, pushing cowork, and again back to tokens, we're like, ooh, we just spent four grand this month in tokens for cowork in one department. That's not good, right? And what we found was because they were doing such a big push on cowork, they would just start in cowork instead of just starting in chat. And really and truly, ninety percent of day-to-day productivity type work can be done in just regular chat. So just being mindful of what models you're using, being mindful of doing the planning. And anytime you're doing the back and forth refining and reiterating, being able to go back to your original prompt and edit that original prompt versus the iteration.

Kendra Ramirez: And then whenever you have that long context window, just say, next time I want to run this scenario, what's a better way to prompt this scenario moving forward? So that way you're using the AI to learn. Because again, it always comes down to prompting. So their original prompt wasn't very good, and that's why they had to go back and forth. So just teaching all these little things of, let's do it better next time, or let's plan first.

James Carman: On the Claude Code side, I use a superpowers plugin from the Anthropic marketplace. It's about doing spec driven development roughly. It does a pretty good job of auto-picking. It'll say, I've written out this specification for this code, and here's the plan, it's not real complicated, let's use Sonnet for that. And then when I want to do the security review, now that's an Opus level thing. It does a great job of auto switching. I think that's what we need in the general Claude world.

Kendra Ramirez: Yeah, a hundred percent. When you mentioned that, I was like, why is that not in just regular Claude? It's smart enough to self select.

James Carman: It's got to be at that planning phase. When it's making a plan to go do a thing, it plans it out and says, step one, that's a Sonnet thing, step two is a haiku thing. It has a pretty good idea of the level of rigor that is needed for each one of those tasks. And honestly it would benefit Anthropic too, because they're getting constrained on compute. If we can offload some of that and make these smaller models used more often, granted they make money on tokens, but they could probably serve more clients.

James Carman: I'm ship it on token optimization from a general principle. But the thing I worry about, because I've been in this industry long enough, is a couple months ago we were talking about token maxing and everybody was bragging about how many tokens they were using. And then somebody got hit with a bill at the end of that month, and then it was like, oh, that token maxing thing's stupid. Our industry tends to do these pendulum swings from token maxing, I'm using five billion tokens per second, to, I used one token all week and got my job done. I don't want to go to that extreme. Hopefully we settle very quickly. Let's have some balance. Imagine that, tech industry.

Lightning round

James Carman: What was the last Halloween costume you wore?

Kendra Ramirez: The only thing that comes to mind, and this is hilarious, is a group of my friends and my husband went to an adult Halloween gathering. And we collectively decided to make my husband a pimp, and the rest of us were his posse. That was about ten, fifteen years ago.

James Carman: What sound would you make if you were freezing cold?

Kendra Ramirez: My teeth would chatter.

James Carman: Do you have any friends who are taller than six foot four?

Kendra Ramirez: No.

James Carman: Favorite type of muffin?

Kendra Ramirez: Blueberry.

James Carman: How many times did you sneeze in the past seven days?

Kendra Ramirez: A handful, maybe five.

James Carman: Name one of the seven dwarfs.

Kendra Ramirez: Grumpy.

James Carman: Do you like the smell of gasoline?

Kendra Ramirez: I do. I don't know why, but yes.

James Carman: Invisibility or super strength?

Kendra Ramirez: Invisible for sure. You know how many rooms I would love to sit in and listen?

James Carman: Why can't we tickle ourselves?

Kendra Ramirez: I have no idea.

James Carman: Some people argue it and say, I can absolutely tickle myself. I looked it up. There's something about, because you're doing it, your brain knows, so it almost deadens the sensory input from that part of your body on purpose.

James Carman: Are you able to say anything in an Asian language?

Kendra Ramirez: No.

James Carman: Well that's perfect. That's French. Favorite carnival food?

Kendra Ramirez: Funnel cake.

James Carman: How would you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of one to Mariah Carey?

Kendra Ramirez: I cannot carry a tune in a bucket, so one.

Where to find Kendra

James Carman: Where do they go to learn more about Cincy AI?

Kendra Ramirez: CinciAI.org.

James Carman: No dashes, just all one word. What about KR Digital? Are you writing, are you speaking at conferences?

Kendra Ramirez: The majority of the work right now is all with private clients. I've got a handful of public things, but because I donate time to different organizations or nonprofits, just trying to lift as many people and get people reskilled as possible. One really fun thing I'm doing is an all day AI session for seventy nonprofits. So I'm donating the full day to help them. This will be the third year that this organization has had me in. And it's just super fun to be able to help move the needle so they can really focus on their mission.

James Carman: If somebody wanted to talk to Kendra, what's the best way to get in contact?

Kendra Ramirez: My booking link is on our website, and also feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn and mention that you heard our podcast.

James Carman: This has been great. I really enjoyed the conversation. You always have a great take on AI tooling and the AI world, and I learn something I think every time we get together. Thank you again for joining us here on the Forward Slash.

Kendra Ramirez: Thank you for the invite. I loved our conversation. Really appreciate it.

James Carman: If you'd like to get in touch with us here, drop us a line at theforwardslash@callibrity.com. See you next time.

Where to find Kendra Ramirez

• LinkedIn, where she asks that you mention you heard the podcast
• CinciAI.org, the Cincy AI community she co-hosts with Helen

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